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I
welcome to a special edition of Sputnik
from our Westminster Studios but still
orbiting the world with me George
Galloway and me gatri the chil Cott jury
is in the verdict is guiltiest charged
so when does the punishment begin
because if there is no punishment for
blunders many would say crimes of this
magnitude which have caused the life
lives of 1 million people and Counting
how can we claim to live in a land where
justice prevails and if there is no
punishment why would our rulers not do
the same things all over again Dr camel
Mii hated the way things were in Iraq
before the bush and Blair War he was an
Iraqi dissident in Exile even in danger
from the Iraqi regime but as the US and
British forces began to threaten his
homeland he opposed the war with at
least as much passion as the rest of us
and I'm glad to say after a brief
interlude of 10 years or more not only
is he still standing but Dr camel joins
me now uh Dr it was practically the only
Blair defense that at least things are
better in Iraq now with Saddam Hussein
gone what would you say to that well uh
things for people in Iraq now are
certainly not better uh than they were
before that's not to say that people
wanted the regime to stay people did not
want we did not want to pay this huge
cost for getting rid of the regime
without any Prospect of a better life uh
in the future and with and with losing
more and more control over their lives
uh with the danger that the country is
being split apart by uh by by conflicts
that are managed and controlled from
outside that is the reality of of uh
Iraq today after the loss of a million
uh people there is no uh de no democracy
as anybody would understand it uh today
in Iraq there is a mixture of money
politics and guns uh in in a situation
that is uh uh never ending as it
seems uh people uh want to pick up uh
their lives want to move on they don't
want to go back to the regime uh that
there was they don't want the
dictatorship uh that existed uh then but
they look at what happened and they look
at
uh what the occupation and the war has
done uh to Iraq and they say well this
is not what we wanted well there was
corruption in Iraq before now there's
much more corruption there was violence
in Iraq before now there is
fantastically more violence and Iraq was
divided before with the Kurdish area
being out of the control of the central
government in Baghdad but now Iraq is at
least three countries and as you say
other powers from outside are acting
constantly to exacerbate this violence
is this all seen quite clearly across
all the communities in Iraq or has the
sectarian divide aifi
permanently I don't think it's oied
permanently I think it's seen by people
in Iraq it's seen as as as it is now uh
there is fear there is uh worry about
how to get out of this situation uh
there's
uncertainty uh but people do not want
the breakup of Iraq uh understandably uh
the uh Kurdish people want to look
forward to uh a form of national
self-determination which is uh uh the
right which most people have uh in Iraq
have have accepted for a very long time
and the and people have struggled
together Arabs and Kurds have struggled
together for uh democracy in Iraq and
for the national rights of the uh
Kurdish people but to create a division
between Arabs and Kurds uh to put them
opposed to each other as has happened
now uh is not what people want either
Arabs or Kurds Arabs and Kurds do not
want to be in constant what about the
division between Arab and Arab the
division the sectarian division is
clearly uh not among the People by and
large it's not among the people the
sectarian division that exists now is
among the political clicks uh that are
and and people talk about a a a a a
sectarian government now what we have is
a sectarian system a system that's based
on uh identifying people only as sects
and as ethnic groups uh not identifying
people as as uh uh individuals members
of a uh of a national Community uh in
this way so this is the uh the the cause
of the uh division within uh the
communities between sunnis and shis as
exists now people don't want it people
reject it and uh but they have to deal
with the uh with those who carry the
guns and attack uh others on on uh the
basis of their uh sectarian or religious
identity uh and uh these criminals would
attack anybody they'd attack their own
community and they attacked other
communities as well so this is where
where would you blame for all this I
certainly I certainly blame the
occupation primarily
for uh because occupation did not uh uh
came in with a view of destroying the
state uh in Iraq and the state is not
Saddam Hussein the state is anything to
do with public services with security
with uh with a sense of national
identity in there and that is what what
what the occupation set out to do it
want
to break the country so that the country
can be easily controlled and and the
resources of the country can be grabbed
by by the cor the corporations that are
are coming behind the occupation so what
did you feel when you heard Sir John
chilot well what I felt was this is uh
there's nothing that we didn't say
before there's nothing that you didn't
say George before that there's nothing
that that most of us uh hadn't said this
war was based on a lie The Establishment
itself is saying what the people have
said uh throughout but what I also say
is what what what does chilot not
say why was the war carried out we know
it was carried out on on the basis of a
lie but why did they lie uh to do that
what was their aim what who was behind
it who was pushing for that war it
wasn't only the US
neocons Blair wasn't on his own in this
he was he was leading and he was pushing
and he he carried uh he carried the can
for others as well uh in this and uh
what does it say about uh the politics
in this country and politics elsewhere
in the world so do you think it's not
daming
enough uh I think it certainly
very dumbing I mean to carry to to take
the world not just Britain the world to
a war uh on a lie on false pretenses to
cause the the the death of a of a of of
uh up to a million people uh in there uh
and uh to destroy a country and to
destabilize the whole of the region this
is this is uh This was done on on the on
the basis of a lie so this is daming
enough yeah but they didn't call him
obviously coming from they didn't call
him as such now you're an Iraqi uh
citizen here in Britain so you obviously
like us was anticipating to this report
and glued to the television to hear uh
Sir John chilot um presented was it as
much anticipated in Iraq is it how is it
received in Iraq
itself well um I I don't think so I
think in Iraq people are are
looking uh to their daily lives to their
harsh uh daily lives I've seen a lot of
people now saying if this was if this is
the uh verdict of of uh uh the British
establishment then what is the right of
Iraqis in this yes we want Tony Blair
tried but when Iraq occupied Kuwait in
1990 for 6 months with much less damage
than there has been now Iraq uh paid
reparations was made many billions in
over 50 billions and it's still
malnourished Iraqi children today are
paying reparations for the occupation of
Kuwait by Saddam Hussein 26 years ago
now who is going to pay reparations and
when is Iraq going to get reparations
for all the damage that's been done to
it this is what people in Iraq uh have
been saying for a long time and I'm not
sure they they uh uh look very much to
the chilot report for for for justice in
this uh regard but uh well we have to
fight for that so like Ian Hislop says
it's just the British soul searching
yes doctor you know I think uh how much
I loved Iraq how it entered my blood
how even now when I hear the word Iraq I
turn around as if somebody called my
name it's heartbreaking for me to recall
it all now as I sit here with you again
is there any hope for Iraq will there
ever be one Iraq
again uh I believe so I mean I I I
believe so I think the main thing is the
uncertainty that we all have most of all
is uh over the uh future of uh the
relationship between the Kurdish region
and the rest of
Iraq uh I don't think there's
anybody uh who who who cares about
people in there who wants to divide
Iraq uh there are of course Thugs and
criminals and there are political
entrepreneurs who are who are are now
making a killing out of uh a financial
killing out of killing people these are
these are the ones who want to keep Iraq
uh semi- divided or even divided they
don't quite want to divide it because
they they they they just want people in
a in a In Perpetual conflict now these
people uh the majority of people don't
see uh uh two Iraq's uh in this they see
they see it as a problem as a as an
issue of of how to create a system that
works fairly for all Dr kaml let's hope
so thank you very much for joining us on
the Sputnik thank
you she was the leader of the anti-war
movement in Britain from its Inception
until now she's lindsy German and she's
up next stay
tuned
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welcome back to Sputnik the stop the war
Coalition had many leading figures
including both Tony Ben and Jeremy
Corbin but there has been one constant a
human Dynamo the one and only convenor
of the stop the war Coalition Lindsay
German who joins us now Lindsay thanks
for coming on the Sputnik I want to talk
to you mainly about
Britain Dr camel Madie asked a question
to which I don't have the answer why we
know that they lied we know what they've
done but why did they do it well I think
if you look at it you have to look at
Britain's place in the world and
Britain's role uh economically and
militarily over the last 50 or so years
thiz was a turning point when it was
clear that Britain didn't have the power
that it used to have with its Empire
since then it's been determined to have
a special relationship with the United
States I think if you look at the reason
why Blair was so ke to hang on to Bush
was to maintain this special
relationship which is of course has been
a complete disaster he wouldn't listen
to anybody I mean everybody from the
pope to the 2 million people who marched
he wouldn't listen to any of those
people about why it was wrong all the
experts that we know that have now many
of them have been in the chilcott report
of given evidence and so on he didn't
listen to a single person why partly his
own you know obsession with himself but
I think mainly if you look at the wider
questions this this relationship with
the US and it's one of the important
things I think for us that we try to
break that relationship in foreign
policy because it's fantastically
damaging you're right to say that uh the
witnesses from The Establishment in
chilot are damning but they would have
been much more effective if they had
openly opposed what Blair was planning
at the time we now know the entire legal
team of the foreign office all almost
all of our ambassadors in the
region uh we now know that the MI5
director Dame Eliza Manningham Buller an
unlikely hero of the anti-war movement
uh were warning and so on why did the
state I mean you're a
constitutional uh scholar and a a lawyer
uh why didn't the checks and balances
the separation of powers and so on why
didn't that kick in to stop what was a
dangerously
delusional uh and self-destructive path
well I think this is one of the big
questions which now the anti-war
movement those of us on the left
generally and indeed Parliament have to
now answer because there is supposed to
be a sense of which civil servants in
which um the intelligence services in
which all these people are supposed to
be in a certain sense independent of
government now we know that that has
never been the case but it's also true
that this time Blair co-opted these
people or or corrupted sections of them
to do exactly what he wanted and you
know if you remember you were in
Parliament at the time if you remember
the days running up to the vote when
many many labor MPS rebelled against
including yourself at the time rebelled
against the the going to war in Iraq
they had everybody in there bullying
them cajoling them promising them all
sorts of things in order to get them to
do it it was a complete breakdown of
normal Democratic process I think it's
one of the reasons now that people are
so cynical about politicians they're so
skeptical they'll be even more cynical
if nothing now happens to Tony Blair if
there is no outcome from chil cot which
to me it doesn't tell us anything well
it will tell us some new things but
doesn't tell us anything in general
that's right I I just reread War and
Peace and this is four times as long and
not written by Tolstoy so kind of yes
I'm not sure most of us will ever read
it we said it would create the chaos
that it has created we didn't predict
actually how bad the chaos would be and
I think Cal explained that you know that
how how devastating life for Iraqis is
today but we did predict the general
things and yet Parliament and government
was completely troduced in order to
achieve Blair's will was a breakdown I
think that's a good word you used there
was a breakdown even of Bourgeois
capitalist Democrat
Britain it was a breakdown was in a in a
way a kind
of dictatorship suddenly emerged a kind
of bonapart uh emerged but maybe that's
for another day um it's a it's a good
analogy though that there's this kind of
sense in which you know everybody's
drawn behind it and of course we
shouldn't forget the role of people like
the BBC BBC BBC told their employees not
to go on the demonstrations 2 million
people marched they were told they
couldn't go on the demonstrations cuz
they're supposed to be impartial and
you'll recall that the head of news sent
out a memo saying that uh there
shouldn't be too many extreme anti-war
voices well that's you and me I think
they're still like that they still like
that that was exactly the issue I wanted
to turn to now uh there's no
introspection on the part of the media
about all this they have turned on Tony
Blair with absolute Venom me the front
Pages the day after chilot were a sight
to behold was like was a great
collection great headlines but there's
no trace of introspection that they were
a part of this the so-called fourth
estate were equally suborned and coopted
by this uh this phenomenon of Tony Blair
and and worse than that they have
continued with the same uh disregard of
uh truth and fact to March us into war
after War I mean you might have thought
that after the Iraq War you could have
gone back to your your studies and your
academic life but you haven't been
you've had to lead the opposition to war
after war after War that's right that's
right and they are doing it again we've
just been told that there's 600 British
troops going to the Baltic states to
defend the Baltic states against Russia
which I mean leaving aside the
ludicrousness of that Prospect but the
whole thing there's troops going there
there's troops going to Libya there's
special forces already in Syria and more
troops going to Iraq this is all going
on all the
time and yet and yet
the accountability issue still hasn't
been dealt with it isn't dealt with in
chil Cott indeed to some extent you
could say chil Cott has written in a way
that it's going to make it more
difficult for accountability to happen
they kind of want us to cluck cluck
condemn a small click and move on what
happens next now well I think the
broader base especially yeah that's
right well I think a lot of it actually
hangs on what happens to Jeremy Corbin
because Jeremy Corbin has become leader
of the laboral party against I think any
of our expectations including his own
but is in this position it's clear the
thing that they really don't like about
Jeremy Corbin is his attitude toward WS
foreign policy and that is a thing that
I think they are now that's why they're
so desperate to get rid of him they
wanted to get rid of him before
Wednesday they didn't succeed but they
will still try it there's a trident vote
looks like is coming up in the next week
um so I think a lot of it depends can we
say that there are politicians who will
stand up for the truth and who will
stand up for justice I also think we
have to follow any line that we can to
hold Blair particularly to account
impeachment which some people are
putting forward I think is certainly
worth trying that the idea of a trial in
the House of Commons which you know it's
an archaic thing but we need special
measures it might be the only thing that
we can get it's difficult to have a
legal outcome but the families are
certainly considering suing Blair and I
would certainly give all my support to
doing that he probably settle that out
of course I mean he does have a lot of
money he to we've got a film coming out
very soon uh in which we describe just
how much money he's got and where he got
it so there's a big pocket there that
the families can sue for damages
definitely and misuse of public office
and so on I think the impeachment is the
key for us because the IC I don't think
though we must demand it are going to
put him on trial in the he he's not
black enough but that's right he's not
afan he's not afrian that's right so you
know the real the real villains of the
world are free from all of this stuff
exactly but the impeachment
requires him to be brought to the bar of
the house under manners by the sergeant
arms and black Rod who's never Black by
the way of course uh and he has to stand
there at the bar of the house and he has
to hear uh and then the MPS have got to
decide who wants to go down in history
going into the lobby to vote against the
impeachment of Tony Blair who's just
been so uh so dramatically uh brought
down this is probably your next film
George actually when you when you think
about it the other thing I think we
ought to think about is having him
barred from public office because I
don't know what the possibilities and
mechanisms are for that but surely you
know he was talking last week he could
help negotiate brexit well whichever way
you voted over it why would anybody
think that was a good idea you know it's
just so I think that is something Orel
from the labor partel from the labor
party because people are suspended and
expelled for far far less than starting
War yeah yeah that's right as George
knows to only too well uh do you ever
and you know you and I have now
been uh marching together and talking
together for all these years do you ever
pinch yourself and and ask yourself was
all this just a nightmare I mean to be
honest it kind of came out of nothing
for me I was bowling along as a
left-wing labor MP
but within certain bounds and parameters
you were a leading figure in socialist
uh politics but we we could never have
imagined that could we that we' be
thrust into the middle of all of this it
changed my life I mean it changed my
life in all sorts of ways and I think
you know it's something that you
suddenly get where things change
dramatically in society and in politics
and you have to respond to that and
we're now in another period of this that
this is the latest bombshell I mean
there's obviously the whole question of
leaving the EU which has opened up a
huge political crisis again and it's
very important for us I think that those
of us on the left fight for an outcome
which isn't about narrow nationalism
isn't about restricting the rights of
people from other parts of the world
isn't about all those sorts of things
but these are big big days I mean it was
Lenin I think who said you know there's
weeks where decades happen which I think
we've used at various times I'm sure
I've heard you say that and it's never
been more true in my lifetime this is a
very very big crisis and you think the
last one was the second world war really
and out of that came the left-wing labor
government which nationalized all the
industry and created the Health Service
and did all those sorts of things we
need something on this scale again that
is the truth and that's why they don't
like Jeremy Corbin by the way because
any suggestion of this terrifies them I
did tell them you were a Dynamo lindsy
German thanks for joining us on the
Sputnik alas that's all we've got time
for but you can stay in touch with us
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today it's goodbye from me gri and from
me George Galloway it's been
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marvelous